I would like to ask you, witness: Did Himmler or Gluecks tell you about the contents of this conference?
Q I shall now turn to document NO-213, which is Prosecution Exhibit 252. It is a letter from Rudolf Brandt to Professor Glauberg of 10 July 1942. My question is: Did Glauberg come to see you and did you visit the Ravensbrueck camp with him, which one might assume on the basis of this letter?
A I cannot recall that Glauberg came to see me five years ago. I do not believe so. Above all, I should remember a trip to Ravensbrueck, but I was never there, nor do I see from the letter why I should have gone there with him. I cannot recall this affair at all.
Q The next two documents are concerned with sterilization experiments, or castration with X-rays. They are Exhibit 256. It is a report by Brack, from the Fuehrer Chancellery, concerning X-ray castration. This report was passed on to Himmler on 28 March 1941, with an accompanying letter from Brack. It is document NO-203.
My question is: Did you see Brack's report? Did it become known to you?
A No, I never saw Brack's report.
Q Three months later Victor Brack wrote once again to Himmler on this same problem, on 23 June 1942. This is Exhibit 257, document NO-205, at page 84 of the English document book. In that letter Brack tells Himmler that at the order of Reichsleiter Bouhler he gave to Brigadefuehrer Globocnik a large number of his own men in order to carry out his special assignment.
I would like to ask you: Did Himmler or Globocnik tell you anything about this business, and when were you told?
A Neither Himmler nor Globocnik told me anything of this Group Brack.
Court No. II, Case No. 4.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Did you know anything about the sterilization or castration program from any source at the time it was going on?
A No, I never heard anything about that.
Q You never heard anything about it?
A No, I never heard anything about it.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: What is the next book you are going to use, Dr. Seidl?
DR. SEIDL: I am now turning to some questions which deal with the so-called euthanasia program, and the documents concerned are contained in document book X.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, in presenting their case on the so-called euthanasia program, the Prosecution submitted documents which show that that program was carried out in concentration camps under the designation 14 F 13. As Exhibit 281, the Prosecution submitted Hitler's decree of 1 September 1939, in which Reichsleiter Bouhler and Dr. Ned Brandt are charged with extending the competence of certain doctors to be named, to the effect that people who are incurably ill, according to human estimates, can, upon a most careful diagnosis of their condition of sickness, be accorded a mercy death. This is Document 630-PS, which is Prosecution Exhibit 281.
Witness, when did you hear the wording and the contents of this Hitler-decree for the first time?
A I saw this decree here in Nurnberg as a document for the first time.
Q When did you hear that in the war, in insane asylums and concentration camps, certain people were being accorded a mercy death on the basis of this Hitler-decree?
A I cannot recall that I received at any time an official or any other informational report or communication about the execution of a euthanasia program. I came across the title of "euthanasia program" Court No. II, Case No. 4.for the first time here in Nurnberg; I do not know when this program was begun, nor how it was carried out.
Even after 1942, when the Inspectorate was incorporated into the WVHA, I never heard anything about it or noticed that program was still going on in the concentration camps.
Q Therefore you cannot say anything about the statements made by Victor Brack in his affidavit, which is Prosecution Exhibit 282, Document NO-426, on page 3 of the English document book, document book X?
A No; I cannot say anything about that from my own knowledge.
Q In Exhibit 283 the Prosecution has submitted several documents, which are included in document No. 1151-PS. This is on page 10 of the English document book. In one of these documents the inspector of concentration camps tells the commandant of concentration camps, on 12 December 1941, that a medical commission will soon visit them. I am asking you, did you hear anything about the contents of the letter at that time or later on?
Q And how do you explain the designation 14 F 13?
A I did not hear anything of this letter to the commandants of December 1941. As to how the designation 14 F 13 came about I tried to puzzle that out here in Nuernberg; I had no knowledge of it before, nor do I think I ever came across the expression. I assume that is simply a file note, because I have seen from the files that "14" is the basic figure for the files of the concentration camps, which is all I can say about this matter.
Q As Exhibit 288, the Prosecution has submitted an extract of the testimony of Dr. Fritz Mennecke before Military Tribunal No. I, which is document NO-2635, document book X, page 62 of the English book. I would like to ask you: Can you tell us something about the description which Mennecke gives, from your own observations and your own knowledge?
Q. Mennecke himself is unknown to me even today. I never heard his name before. From this transcript I see that apparently he was a member of a Doctors' Commission which travelled from camp to camp in order to carry out the Euthanasia program, but I cannot say anything from my won knowledge.
Q. On page 95 of the German text it says: Quote "In one of your letters to your wife you spoke of the fact that you did not meet the defendant Brack because he and some of the others who were members of the organization T-4 had gone to the East in order to prepare the organization which was to rescue German wounded from ice and snow. End of quotation. I would like to ask you, witness, do you know what T-4 stands for?
A. No, that is quite unknown to me.
Q. You never heard of the fact that this is a sort of code for Bouhler's office in Tiergartenstrasse, 4, in Berlin?
Q. Do you know anything of the statements made by the witness Dr. Morgen, which he made in connection with Tiergartenstrasse, 4, before the IMT?
A. No, that also is not known to me.
Q. I shall now turn to Document NO-429, page 122 in the English Document Book X. It is an affidavit by Waldemar Hoven. You have read this affidavit, and I would like to ask you: As Chief of the WVHA, were you informed of the matters described in this affidavit, and in how far are you in a position, on the basis of your own knowledge, to comment on statements made by Dr. Hoven?
A. It was not known to me that in Buchenwald since 1941 there was an institute for this research work.
Nor do I know who was in charge. My entire knowledge comes from this document.
Q. Then I shall turn to Document NO-2436, on page 127 of the English Document Book X. This was Exhibit 292, and represents excerpts of the testimony made by the witness Ferdinand Roemhild before Military Tribunal One, Case One, against Karl Brandt and others... In your capacity as Chief of the WVHA, did you know anything about the measures described by the witness?
A. No, nothing became known to me.
Q. As Exhibit 295 the Prosecution has submitted a letter from SS-Brigadefuehrer Gluecks to the commanders of various concentration camps of 17 April 1943, which also refers to the Action 14 F 13. This is Document NO-1007, page 141 of the English Document Book X. In that letter it says the following, literally and I quote:
"The Reichsfuehrer-SS and Chief of the German Police upon demonstration has decreed that in the future only insane prisoners can be selected for the Action 14 F 13 by the medical commissions appointed for this purpose." My question is, witness; Did this letter, or the contents of this letter, become known to you?
A. I cannot recall that this matter was reported to me. I assume with certainty that this decision by Himmler was communicated either directly to Gluecks or to the RSHA. It must have gone to Gluecks. The RSHA had nothing to do with this. I would have noticed that at the time and I would have put questions about the process. I do not believe that it was submitted to me.
Q. Then I shall finally turn to Document NO-2333, which is an affidavit of Dr. Schiedlausky. It is on page 142 of the English Document Book, 131 of the German Book.
I would like to ask you in this connection.....do you recall that at the beginning of June 1941 you visited Mathausen, together with Himmler? Were you present when Himmler visited the hospital? Did you hear the remark made by Himmler here, and did you discuss the Euthanasia action, as far as the hospital was concerned, with Lolling?
A. I went to Mathausen several times with Himmler. Whether I did this in 1941, or not, I do not know. It is possible. I can't recall at all whether about six years ago he visited the hospital at Mathausen and made this remark, because he was always surrounded by a motley crowd and I was not always present when he made visits. I and Lolling or I and Gluecks, never discussed anything pertaining to Euthanasia because the whole process was not known to me. I did not know that after 1943 it was still going on in camps in a somewhat weaker form. It always was done on the medical channel of command. Lolling never asked me any questions about this.
JUDGE MUSMANNO: You say you do not remember whether you were present on this occasion or not. Would not the remark made by Himmler, and you been present, clung to your memory -- when you consider the spectacular brutality of it. Wouldn't persons brought before him, in your presence, according to the affidavit - and Himmler said, "I want this man to be dead by this evening" ... certainly you would remember if you heard a remark of that character or not.
A. I believe so, definitely, had I heard that remark.
Q. But you say you don't remember whether you were there or not - thereby including the possibility that you could have been there?
A. I cannot recall that I and Himmler were there in 1941.
I said before that I was in Mathausen more frequently on some occasions - I went with Himmler, but I cannot recall that I went through the hospital with him. I don't remember that picture, and I must therefore assume that I was not present when he made that remark.
DR. SEIDL: If the Court please, in connection with Action 14-F-13 in Document Book X I have no further questions to ask, and perhaps this would be a suitable moment, before we begin an entirely new complex, to adjorn.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has no objection.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 0930 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 21 May 1947)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 May 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Robert M. Toms, presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
There will be order in the Court.
BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, before we turn to the question of labor allocation, I wish to put a question to you which is connected with an earlier document, submitted in Document Book 5. This is Document NO-1210 which was Exhibit 146. This is an affidavit by a certain Pauly, and a copy of this affidavit is in your hands. Will you please comment briefly on this affidavit?
A Pauly was the last camp commandant of Neuengamme. In his affidavit he says that approximately between 13 and 15 April 1945 he received an order signed by either Mueller or Hoess from the RSHA to execute the experimental subjects, and he alleges that this order came from me. I have not the slightest knowledge of the whole business. It would not have been part of my tasks; at that time I was already moving away to southern Germany, and the camp was under the orders of the Higher Police and SS Leader at Hamburg.
Q Now I turn to the question of labor allocation, and in this connection I shall put a few questions to you which are contained in Document Book II.
First of all, a general question: Who in the concentration camp was responsible for the labor allocation of the inmates and what was the agency which directed the labor allocation centrally, as far as it concerned inmate labor or in economic enterprises?
AApproximately in the middle of 1942 I ordered the following changes in the allocation of labor. In each camp a labor allocation leader was appointed. He was part of the staff of the camp commandant and was his consultant for the questions of labor allocation, and received his orders from the camp commandant. The camp commandant, in turn, received his orders from Office D-2, in Office Group D, Inspectorate of Concentration Camps, which was under the direction of Standartenfuehrer Maurer.
Q What were the business relations in the questions of camp innate labor between you, yourself, as the chief of WVHA, and the Chief of Amtsgruppe D, or his expert, Standartenfuehrer Maurer?
AApplications from armament enterprises, including the supply of labor, were prepared in Office D-2, and this is how it worked. The enterprises would apply either to the camp commandant directly or to the Office D-2 - it depended on their connections and on their situation. The camp commandant then had to visit the enterprise and discuss with the manager questions of billeting, feeding, and medical welfare of the laborers. In this respect he had to report to the Office D-2; Office D-2 then would discuss these applications with the armament ministry and would receive a certificate confirming the necessity of the particular allocation. The applications having thus been prepared, Gluecks, usually accompanied by Maurer, would see me about once a week, submit the applications to me, and I approved them. Only then would the camp commandant, through Office D-2, receive the order to furnish the inmates.
Q You stated that the enterprises either addressed the camp or the Inspectorate of Concentration Camps. Was it not the case very frequently or was it not even the rule that enterprises would apply to the labor office concerned, the Regional Labor Office, which would then pass on the applications to the Ministry of Labor and that the required number of workers would then reach the Inspectorate?
A That might have happened, yes, and later on there was a regulation in this respect, but it was not the normal procedure nor was it ordered for us to do so in 1942.
Q What other Reich agencies were concerned with regulations concerning labor allocation?
A We only dealt with the Armament Ministry.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you also supply the Luftwaffe?
WITNESS: We also furnished labor to the Luftwaffe, to all Arlament works.
THE PRESIDENT: Including the Luftwaffe?
THE PRESIDENT: When Maurer and Gluecks came to see you, did you sign the order allocating labor to the various industries?
WITNESS: The applications were submitted to me - a list of applications of how many inmates would be needed - and I approved them by initialing them.
THE PRESIDENT: And then Maurer and Gluecks carried out your instructions as indicated on the list?
WITNESS: Yes, quite.
Q Some of the concentration camp inmates were not employed in the SS enterprises, but in private industry. I would like to ask you who worked on this up to a point to whom would a manager of a private factory apply when he needed labor?
A I said before either to the camp commandant or to Office D-II, Office Group D, directly. That depended where the enterprise was located. If the camp was near an enterprise, the owner of the enterprise would apply directly to the camp commandant and he saw to it that the application would reach Office D-II.
Q Did the private industry have any particular interest in employing inmates because there was a different wage scale, or what were the reasons, generally speaking, why a private enterprise would apply for labor consisting of camp inmates?
A The essential motive for private industry was exclusively the shortage of labor - or manpower - not the wage scale, because private enterprises had to pay the same wages to the Reich as they had to pay for their other workers their civilian labor. It depended on what sort of work the inmates would do - their wages as skilled laborers, or assistant laborers, or as unskilled laborers- but the actual wage scale was the same.
Q What was the position of the Chief of Office Group C, that is to say, Kammler and his special staff, with regard to labor by inmates and who issued orders to Kammler?
AAs far as labor allocation was concerned, Kammler's position in the special staff was the same as the head of an enterprise, that is to say, for those tasks, he had to obtain labor for these things in just the same way as the head of any other enterprise. The rule was that he would negotiate with Gluecks directly, and, as he carried out exclusively Reich tasks, these workers were put at his disposal every time.
Q. Who was in charge of the so-called A projects or construction program which were connected with subterranean allocation of labor - and which ones became known to you, yourself?
Did you inspect the subterranean factories in Dora where V-weapons were produced, and what were your impressions at the time?
A These constructions were made by Kammler's special staff and in order to carry them out, Kammler would include private firms occasionally, above all, as far as the leadership personnel was concerned. Some of these projects I saw myself. Some tunnels which were part of a dead end and had been rebuilt, that is to say, concrete additions, lighting installations, air conditioning, and other things which are important for enterprises were made. I also went to Dora for the first time before work was started and later on, once or twice, I think in 1943 and once in 1944. Dora was a subterranean installation where formerly the Economic Research G.m.b.H. , a Reich enterprise, stored oil and other fuel. There were several large tunnels which had been driven into the mountains, They were about 10 or 12 meters wide and 10 meters high. Railway tracks would directly lead into them in order to discharge the various supplies. When I saw this installation for the first time, it was the typical picture of a subterranean installation. The wall did not have a concrete surface, rather humid, as you see it quite frequently in tunnels. The first work done there was to lay concrete; also the ceiling was given concrete, and air conditioning was added, lighting installations - and when I saw the installation for the second time, later on, it was difficult to recognize it again. It was completely dry and air conditioning was successful and these tunnels showed all the equipment which was necessary to produce V-weapons. The inmates were billeted at first in emergency billets, and I think some of them were billeted in the tunnels themselves.
For the first period, conditions were probably not particularly good, but simultaneously with the extension of these tunnels, a camp was built for inmates and that camp was situated in the immediate vicinity of the tunnels, in a piece of woods, which was protected. I know that great care was taken when this location was selected to find a well-protected spot near the forest so that the inmates, during their leisure hours, would have the opportunity to relax, without being bothered by the enterprise, but this particular camp, as time went on, was not sufficiently large, because the installation was extended and new tunnels were built and then more camps were installed, and these camps from the point of view of the air raids were scattered around the location of the enterprise. I myself did not see these new camps.
Q Several witnesses have testified before this court describing the conditions in these subterranean enterprises. What can you yourself tell us about this from your own observations? Will you comment on the testimony of these witnesses?
A I saw when these inmates worked in these tunnels and conditions, once the tunnels had been equipped, were entirely satisfactory. As I said before, the tunnels were dry, warm, well air-conditioned, and the tunnels were so large that there was much freedom of movement. They were not so narrow as they were in the tunnel near Mauthausen, which I inspected later on. All the other tunnels were not so large, and therefore the enterprise was somewhat more narrow. I do not know whether there were day and night shifts in Dora. It is possible, because of the conditions that existed and the program for V-weapons was worked on at top speed.
Q B-projects were called construction work which was carried out above ground, and I would like to ask you what do you know about those projects and who was in charge?
A. Well, of the "B" projects I cannot recall that I saw any of them. I don't know whether part of this, for instance, was at Fallersleben with the special staff as its agency. I saw little of this, and I cannot recall it.
Q. The next secret assignment was called the "S" project. What project was there, and who was in charge there?
A. These "S" projects were also part of the Kammler Special Staff. I do not know from where that designation comes. I assume that is an abbreviation for special Inspectorate, because Kammler, apart from the Inspectorates belonging to Office Group-C, had another special Inspectorate for these special assignments, which may be the reason for that abbreviation. Sofar as the inspection was concerned, I saw S-1, I believe it was 1, and S-3. S-1 was near Wehrsten in Thuringia. This was a testing staff where weapons called V-weapons were tested. It was a slate quarry which included tunnnels, and there the engines and other machines were sorted, which were required in order to build or test the furnaces of the V-weapons. I was at that place once. S-3 at Ohrdruff also was the Fuehrer's headquarters, which was to be built there. For the first time I visited it before this construction was begun when Himmler visited that location. Then perhaps in 1943 -- or 1944 inmates were used, there and did their work. Some outside deep tunnels had to be built into the mountain, and within those tunnels special rooms were broken out which were to serve as rooms. That work was carried out by the use of all technical equipment, and was the same sort of work that is done when a tunnel is made. Some of the inmates were working on equipping the rooms, once they had broken out of the mountain.
They were dressed with wood, and made habitable. The billets for the inmates were in some cases near the location, and I saw them. They were the usual inmate barracks. S-1 work became more intense there, and more quarters for inmates were installed, which again were built under consideration of the air attacks, but I did not see them.
Q. What were the conditions in those "S" enterprises?
A. When I visited them for the last time in 1944, and saw the work, it was rather heavy work, of course, to break a tunnel, and the work in the quarries, was not easy. Especially if somebody had to do this work who was not used to working physically. But I do not know what the shifts were, and all of that work was under enormous pressure, which came from the Amt, because of the fact that project D-3 was to be finished in a period of time which was quite impossible to keep. The Fuehrer's headquarters were to be transferred to Silesia, and there was an enormous building site there which Kammler told me about, but I did not see it myself. It was directed by the Todt Organization. That Silesian enterprises was never completed, and, therefore, the work in Thuringia was rushed, which was S-3. It was to be completed within quite an impossible short period of time, and this rush and top speed of course affected the conditions of work.
Q. You said that all these enterprises were directed by Kammler's Special Staff. Kammler was also head of Office Group-C, and I would like to ask you as Chief of WVHA, did you have any decisive authority in this work of Kammler's Special Staff.
A. I had no authority over Kammler's Special Staff.
He was subordinated as the Chief of Special Staff directly to Himmler.
Q. Other witnesses described the labor conditions in Gusen. What was that assignment, and are you in a position to tell us something about this from your own observations?
A. Gusen was also a subterranean enterprise, and I believe it was a Messerschmidt work. It was also possible that other aircraft factories were installed there. The Messerschmidt was the largest installation. Here again tunnels were driven into the mountains. These tunnels, as I have said before, were not as large as those at Dora, but at the same time there was enough space for aircrafts, that is to say, the fuselage at least could be mounted there. The enterprise once you visited there gave you the impression of an antcolony. I do not know how many people worked there in extending the tunnels, and simultaneously the effect of the work on the tunnels which were ready, had a production in full swing, and both of these enterprises overlapped, and this confusion did not make conditions any better but interfered with the work. The erection of this enterprise was in the hands of the Messerschmidt works, but the extension of the tunnels was carried out by Kammler's Special Staff.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any Amt of the WVHA that you did have control over?
THE WITNESS: I had control in the WVHA over Office Groups A,B,C, and D, sofar as labor allocation was concerned.
Q. You had no control over Kammler and his Special construction group?
A. Kammler in the WVHA was head of the Office Group-C, but the Special Staff of Kammler's was an agency which was not part of the WVHA, but stood outside of that office. It was subordinated directly to Himmler, and the collaboraters came from all branches of the armed forces, the Waffen-SS, as well as the Army and the Luftwaffe.
Q. Well, except for the special construction group under Amt-C under Kammler, and Amt-D, you did have supervision over all of the others? Amt-D was the Inspectorate, wasn't it?
Q. You have already said that you had nothing to do with that; that Gluecks and Maurer operated that?
A. No, in the Office Group-B - - or C, I was in charge of the labor allocation. That was why in March 1943 that was put under my direction because I was to look after the labor allocation, and see the Todt Agency there.
Q. You told us yesterday that the Inspectorate, that was Amt-D, was is not?
A. Yes, Office Group-D.
Q. Well, all right, Office Group-D. Did you have little or no control over that?
A. May I add especially something on the position of Office Group-D briefly?
Q. I thought you did that yesterday?
Q. That was the Inspectorate, was it not?
A. Yes, quite so, Mr President.
Q And technically it was an amtsgruppe or office under your supervision, but actually it was independent of you.
A It was independent of me in all matters relating to security police of the RSHA, as far asit concerns labor allocation. I believe, Mr. President, that perhaps with your permission I could explain this briefly once more. The Inspectorate which was formed in 1936 is the essential office and the top agency for all concentration camps; it was the final agency as it were of a line to Group D which was connected with all concentration camps; nothing was above that Inspectorate; but from the Inspectorate a line went to Himmler as it were and the others, it went to the RSHA. Within the Inspectorate as the top agency and the final agency all questions were dealt with which concerned the administration of concentration camps, and as well as all other questions concerning inmates were dealt with, came from either Himmler or from the Secret State Police, the Gestapo, that is to say the RSHA, and only as late as 1942 another line was connected with me, and I was at the end of that line; and through that line all questions of labor allocation were dealt with -- nothing else. My staff had no experts for concentration camp matters, nor did I have any files. Everything that went through that cable, as I said before, was discussed once a week between Gluecks, Maurer and myself, and -
Q What you are saying is that only with respect to labor allocations was Amt D subordinated to you; in all other respects it remained as it had before 1942, responsible either to Himmler or to the RSHA?
A Yes, that is so.
Q Now, what about the Special Construction Group under Amt C?
A You mean office group C, Mr. President.
Q Yes. That is different from Amt C, is it?
Q Office Group C.
A Now, Office Group C was just an office group like A and B; they are the top office groups of the WVHA, and this Office Group C worked on all questions which were related to construction matters of the Waffen SS, and later on of the Police.
That did not include all the special constructions and armament constructions to which we have referred, that is to say, the transfer of armament industries underground, etc. These were different matters, and for that reason the Special Staff of Kammler was founded, because that staff, represented the interests of the army, the navy and the Luftwaffe and Kammler in the form of a special assignment quite apart from being charged with Office Group C, carried out those tasks under Himmler's direction. Those tasks, in other words, had nothing to do with his position and task of Chief of Office Group C for the Waffen SS.
BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:
Q Who was responsible for all administrative matters, such as housing and medical care in the concentration camps?
A For all these tasks the Inspectorate, and later on Office Group D was responsible. These tasks would reach that office because Office Group D had an administrative office of its own and a chief doctor of its own and all other equipment and its own personnel offices
Q All of that was the WVHA, was it not?
AAs the final Ministerial agency, yes; unlike all other divisional arrangements medical care was not part of that; that of course would come under the Reich Physician SS because I did not have any medical equipment of my own in the main office, and the WHA therefore would be concerned only with those questions which came to it from all bigger units of the Waffen-SS divisions, or corps were Ministerial decisions were required as all the lower grade organizations which I believe is usual in the armed forces of all countries; they had their own administrative office. In our case, for instance, they are called army administrative offices, I believe -
Q You don't mean to say the Waffen SS had anything to do with the medical corps of concentration camps, do you?